Author Topic: Helm really needs a nerf  (Read 1467 times)

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Offline Cnut

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2018, 09:21:38 am »
Well to be fair Roman, noobs wont get a headshot anyway. And a player with game sense will know better then to buy the helm against noobs, unless he wants to empty the server by bullying everyone away. When going up against noobs I normally dont even buy boots or amulet and rather spend my points on EXP.

I use the helm to have any sort of a chance against the top10 players. It gives me a slight edge which keeps me from getting butchered all the time.

And in certain aim maps where the helm CAN BE overpowered there most of the time will be a "gentlemen's agreement" where multiple players silently agree not to use the helmet cause its just so incredible lame in certain spots.

Besides, if were talking about nerfing HELM cause its annoying in certain maps, how about that orc throwing nades? Can those be nerfed as well since they get abused as I love hitmany and will never use bad words in those maps? And can Razor be nerfed since its owning everyone in Knife Round? And can Luna get nerfed cause its annoying as I love hitmany and will never use bad words? And why does Blood Mage take 70HP?! Isnt 50 enough?!

Its not the item or race or w/e, its the map and the position in which its played. Most of the problems come from the smaller maps where there is no workaround.
 

Offline Tolle

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 10:51:27 am »
But the difference in what you are mentioning now, Cnut, and the helmet is that there are counters for all those things you mentioned! They are all ultimate based threats. Those ultimates can be countered with Necklace.

I can agree with you that Orc nades can be stupid even when you buy shield. But I think that has to do with the nature of Gloves of Warmth. Something like changing the premise for WHEN a nade is given could fix this issue.

Wouldn't a 3 charge helmet have the same effect against top10 players? If they are prone to get those instant headshots they should be at a pretty big disadvantage if the first or even two headshots are blocked.

I'd rather have us try to be flexible than refusing to play any small maps because of certain items effect on the game.
 

Offline Cnut

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 01:16:56 pm »
You're right about that Tolle and I change my point of view, but Alex mentioned that it barely got bought after it got nerfed, because its lost all its purpose.

Perhaps a nerf shouldnt be so drastic as to still be 6 gold and only hold 3 charges. It should be balanced in a way where its usefull, still gets bought and isnt OP in the smaller maps where one could hide behind a box/ledge.
We must bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.
 
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Offline R0MAN

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 03:40:54 pm »
Well to be fair Roman, noobs wont get a headshot anyway. And a player with game sense will know better then to buy the helm against noobs, unless he wants to empty the server by bullying everyone away. When going up against noobs I normally dont even buy boots or amulet and rather spend my points on EXP.
Hehe, you are a good guy then, but I've seen a lot of good players abuse it ;)
 

Offline Tolle

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 05:36:22 pm »
Perhaps a nerf shouldnt be so drastic as to still be 6 gold and only hold 3 charges.
Doesn't the helm only cost 2 gold?  ::think:: In any case, statistics have a big say in this, and the fact that people stopped buying it after nerf says something. But to be fair, the times I see helm is mostly when there are camping potentials in the map - I rarely see anyone buy helmet while roaming and pushing.

Quite honestly, I just want helm to be a viable item that doesn't suggest camping and the only way that can be done is by limiting how many shots in the head a player can take in the same position. To make that happen, charges must be applied. Alternatively, a headshot timer could be the solution. Every time you get shot in the head, the helmet is disabled for 2 seconds. This will prevent helmet abuse in camping positions, while giving an advantage of continuous head protection.

We must bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness.

"Balance is not something you find, it's something you create."
- Jana Kingsford
 

Offline M_AterNuM

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 08:20:36 pm »
Had to join in, couldn't resist. So tolle idea of a cooldown thing is gud. Its just not fair to have an item that literally makes u invincible to headshots with out a cooldown of some sort.
 

Offline Hanzii7

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 10:44:20 pm »
I honestly do not think that the timer is a good idea. 6 gold, and then you get two-tapped by a top10 player:( However, as Tolle mentioned: "Charges must be applied". I do agree with cnut on 3 charges being to little. Perhaps 5 is more suitable amount. Especially if the charges get reset, given that the player survives the round without the helmet breaking:)
 

23Alex

  • Guest
Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2018, 01:53:13 am »
Then amulet of cat should have a timer as well every 5-7 steps make sounds because otherwise you have no counter.
You see where I go? ;-)

You can't compare a permanent item with a race skill that can be countered.
You could do that with any item.


"Mask of death should only work for 5 shots it is overpowered that you gain a permanent lifesteal."

"Ring should only heal a maximum of 80hp and stop the regeneration then".

I still think the issue here are the maps inviting for abuse if you play on any normal map (which is our goal) you can hardly find a spot where you hide to be invincible. Like on dust2,office, inferno etc.
The logical step here is to remove these maps and to do that we need the maps reported and we can work around this issue.

Maybe even post aversion where they fixed the crouch camping and reduced certain highs of objects on a redone version.


PS:

"Socks of feather should be limited to 4 jumps  ::wink:: "
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 01:54:59 am by 23Alex »
 

Offline M_AterNuM

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2018, 02:10:19 am »
but thats not the argument alex, we're talking about the item helm. At least i am. Lets not get sidetracked. And this point ur trying to make about maps is just not plausible. If u tried, u can find an angle to hold on any map.
like in dust 2, in pit. But anywho, this is my point. Why nerf an item by making it more powerful. I said it before and i will say it again. If someone bought a helm right now, they can't die with a headshot.Ever. Why?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 02:53:00 am by M_AterNuM »
 

23Alex

  • Guest
Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2018, 04:13:20 am »
Because that was the original intention of the helmet on warcraft servers and we always aimed for the classic experience and if you stay in pit only on dust2 people will simply move on and plant the bomb hence rendering it useless.
On an aim Map though without a goal (which is originally only meant to fill the server anyway and then swap back to normal maps) you can have these camp out situations.
It is beside mole one of the more expensive items we have and thus stronger than some other items but nothing you can buy every round.

To be honest the most part I read out of this topic is that some people having trouble to stay with a high kd/r if they encounter someone with helmet and it was already said that we are a rather small group here in forum and we did fall on our nose so often already when we used the poll of a few to make changes for all.
Not only with helmet which was hardly used for over 1 year but also with naga nerf which we had to roll back then and then buff again etc.

And the same argumentation which is used against helmet right now could be used for allot of items for example that a ring makes the passive from soul reaper useless etc. not doing this to get side tracked but rather to show that it is good that we have a variety in items, the only stuff used back then after helmet nerf (by majority)
was amulet+boots & health + boots or health + mask
Now there is in addition helm+health and helm+mask and boots + helm used more often.

I seriously don't see a reason why an item which is balanced on our intented maps shall be made useless again because there are certain FUN maps with spots ruining it balance on that particular map.

At least half of our active playerbase is able to deal good headshots and often enough when you spectate someone with a helmet he receives 3-5 headshots a row in an encounter from these players. So if we nerf helmet again it would simply mean  that the "bad" player dies again to the headhots from each encounter.
 

Offline Tolle

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 12:51:25 pm »
Then amulet of cat should have a timer as well every 5-7 steps make sounds because otherwise you have no counter.
You see where I go? ;-)
I'm sorry, but I don't. The obvious counter to amulet is checking your back. Because you know people can sneak up on you, you should check behind you more often - that's a counter. But with helm you don't have that option.

Mask of Death gives longevity and so does Ring of Regeneration - but they don't prevent death. If your opponent hits their shots well, you won't be able to out-heal it. Sock gives players new high-positions that players may not check and plays well with some races like Chronos and Succubus. Most items have a usefulness and a limit to their power right now. In my opinion, helmet does not.

I do agree that fun/aim maps introduce more variables which will automatically give some items more usefulness, but to me this is about trying to make all items NOT OP and NOT BAD on all maps.

Bad                                                                               OP
<------------------------------------------------------------------>

And right now, helm is right aboooooooooout here ^

I know it was changed before. I know it's problematic changing things and again - and I understand that it's annoying having to discuss many times. But just like all online games, changes are applied if the balance is off. Sometimes it's more than one thing being changed. I think the balance of the item is off, so I'm arguing that it should be changed.

(I also think helm is OP in standard maps like Dust2 and Assault.)
 

Offline M_AterNuM

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 01:46:09 pm »
Tolle with the good points. Lets not get distracted and just talk about helm. If i remember correctly, helm used to save u from a couple of headshots and it would break, but now hypothetically, u can never die ( if someone was dealing only headshots) . Surviving a couple of headshots from an ak isn't bad at all if u ask me. And a counter argument for the bomb being planted would render the hypothetical person camping in pit would be, that person is still not dying when he/she is continuously getting headshotted here and there. The whole point of shooting the head is getting a headshot but when u can buy an item that can make u immune to all and every headshots without a catch, like a cooldown or the item breaking???

 FYI, i don't enjoy arguments at all. just had to give my two cents on the issue.
 Please consider
 

Offline Cnut

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2018, 06:49:22 pm »

Bad                                                                               OP
<------------------------------------------------------------------>

And right now, helm is right aboooooooooout here ^


I just wanted to give a shoutout to Tolle for the graphic, nice  ::winkgrin::.
 

23Alex

  • Guest
Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2018, 06:58:24 pm »
The point is that helm is used to counter headshots but you are still killable on any other part of the body even the neck I don't see any high skilled player or low skilled player having trouble to aim for the body its just that they don't always expect it so situation related it is strong, yes but on normal maps where you move around and realize after the first shots that he got helmet you simply aim for the body.

And the counter to amulet "just look behind" is like me saying "just aim for the chest/ feet/arm but you seem to disagree on that one which I honestly can't understand.
If someone is on a strong position with the helmet you can play around it by ignoring him there / moving around / pushing him / using nades, planting the bomb / rescuing the hostage or playing time to win the round.

Again we are not balancing around fun maps but classic ones so I understand the issue on certain maps.
Post the map names in the best case with a screenshot of the position you think is op we can test that position on our test server and then see if we remove the map and add another one without such positions.

I offered this solution already several times there is not a single standard map where you can't win because someone is using helmet so I don't consider the item unbalanced or overpowered.
Play AWP for body hit = counter
Play Hammerstorm with ultimate + body hit= counter
Play Orc with body hit (crit) = counter
play orc with nades (crit) = counter
Play Venomancer with poison damage = counter
Play Warden with poison damage = counter
etc.

We have so many races which deal extra damage where you don't have to go for the headshot for an easy frag and on most maps you are at least 70% exposed with your body on peaks so there is enough to shoot at besides the head.
 

Offline M_AterNuM

Re: Helm really needs a nerf
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2018, 11:32:56 pm »
This thread is just going nowhere. With all do respect Alex, ur the only one the keeps on pushing the narrative that  helm is not overpowered. I for instance aim for the head, not the body so im just wasting bullets until the other guy kills me. I knw ur the final decison on this so i'll end it here. Surviving a couple of headshots isn't bad at all. Give helm sometype of cooldown or make it break after a certain amount of shots.